Last night the phone rang. I asked Kevin to get it, but he complained that it probably wasn't for him anyway. PLEASE pick it up, I begged. Well, he did, and it turned out it WAS for him. It was someone from Cal Poly SLO calling, which is the college where we both went to school and where he graduated from. They told him they wanted to update his contact information. Sure, sure, Kevin said, and gave out his email address. (Why, I'm not sure. It's bad enough that they call us at 6:30 p.m.!) THEN, at the end of the phone call, the person said they were "also" wanting to know if he'd be interested in making a contribution to the university. (Clearly the main reason for the call!) And THEN, they proceeded to say, "We are wondering if you can make a minimum donation of $1,000." ONE THOUSAND DOLLARS?! Oh, what a good laugh we shared when he got off the phone and told me about it. I am wondering, with all of the pain and suffering and no-lack-of-good-causes-to-give-money-to in the world today, who on EARTH is going to give $1,000 to a university that made you pay tuition and buy books in the first place?! Are there people out there who feel so strongly for their alma mater that they will shell out a MINIMUM of $1,000 on a whim? To a COLLEGE? (If anyone out there reading this has done that, I apologize! Maybe there is more to this than meets the eye, I don't know.)
A few months ago I got a phone call from a Christian organization called Family Life. Somehow we are on their contact list. They have this radio show which I've heard once or twice. Sometimes there's something good on there but most of the time I think it's kind of cheesy (again, I'm sorry if you like the show. Like I said I HAVE heard decent things on there.) Anyway, a woman called and started telling me (via a script she was reading) about how the family in America is "under attack." She said that babies born out of wedlock are on the rise, homosexuality is widespread, etc. She then went on to say that Family Life is combatting this, so would I please consider giving a minimum donation of $50 to Family Life.
Hee, hee. First of all, my little family unit is doing just fine. I don't feel like my family is personally threatened by teen pregnancy or by gay people. (And anyway I'm wondering if maybe the higher rate of babies born outside of marriage has to do with a declining abortion rate. Fewer abortions means more babies actually being born.) Second of all, sin is sin--in a sense, the family has been under attack since the beginning of time (the snake tempted Eve in the garden, right?) The woman's script mentioned the gay marriage legislation that's always being talked about. Personal convictions/opinions on that aside, let's say that was to pass and they were able to get married. When it comes right down to it, my own marriage will not be affected, so I am not "scared" enough about it to shell out money to Family Life, who was implying that they would somehow be able to stop it. And finally, I am wondering how their half-hour weekly Christian radio show, which to my knowledge only airs on Christian radio stations, is going to help fewer unmarried women become pregnant, or how it is going to stop people from being gay.
So, of course I told the woman I was not interested in giving at this (read: any) time. But it didn't end there. She launched into another section of the script. The family-attack scare tactics hadn't worked, so now she was using what I will call the guilt angle. She told me another set of things about our country, then said how hard Family Life was working to combat them, concluding with, "Sadly, Family Life cannot do this without donations. Will you please consider making a contribution of $30 today?" Yet again, I said no, I was not interested. AND, she replied with something to the effect of (man I wish I could remember the exact words), "Okay, I understand you don't have money to give today." It may not have been exactly that, but the sentiment was the same: you're too broke to give us $30. Because of course NO ONE who actually HAD the money would keep from giving it to Family Life.
The truth is, we have $30 we could give. We have $50 we could give. But I'm sorry, from my vantage point, there are bigger fish to fry, so to speak. I'm sure God uses Family Life to do good things. But in being a good steward of my money, I feel like I should give it away to those who truly need it. I think there are some fundamental, root-issues here that come into play. I won't go into them, but I will say that I truly wish I would have had the guts to press this woman from Family Life for how exactly my $50 or $30 is going to reduce teen pregnancies. If that's a cause I'm passionate about, wouldn't that money be better donated to a crisis pregnancy center, or to Big Brothers/Big Sisters, or some other organization that is actually in the field helping at-risk women and men? Aren't most of the Family Life listeners other Christians?
Anyway, I had to share the story about the call from last night, and decided to throw the Family Life one in there too. Am I the only one who thinks about these things? Life never ceases to amuse me. It is always an adventure!
Thursday, July 13, 2006
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While I wouldn't ever personally give money to a university (beyond my tuition loan I'm trying to pay off), I guess maybe the root issue there (in Cal Poly's case) is that we (the government) aren't funding public education enough and as a result, public schools (yes, even universities) are low on cash and can only survive by either increasing tuition or by getting donations from alumni. I certainly believe that there is a very valid argument on whether they are spending the money wisely, but overall, I think it's pretty obvious that our schools are hurting financially.
That said, I do think it's interesting when people give money to causes I may not consider "worthy"...but at the end of the day, I always feel guilty when I criticize the choice of philanthropy. In some ways, it is our responsibility to be stewards of our money, but ultimately, you never really know how other people are impacted by a ministry/organization. Some things that I've thought are completely lame, have been great sources of inspiration for others. And ultimately, that's the important thing. And, without getting into a homosexuality debate, the fact that your family isn't necessarily affected/threatened by it, shouldn't really preclude you from being concerned enough about a problem (if you think it is one) to want to donate money to combat it. (Although I certainly agree with you that this radio show is probably not the best way to go about it.) I find myself spending a lot of money and time doing things that I wont directly benefit from, and that's okay. I just try to be careful when I criticize how others choose to tithe because, hey, I'm just glad they ARE tithing. I've learned lately that many of the things I value are not as important to others, and at first it made me mad, but I know realize that if we were all passionate about the same things, then a ton of stuff would get ignored. :0) Besides, what would we blog about??!!
By the way, when I first saw your blog topic, I thought you were soliciting donations so that you could adopt another little one! I was all jazzed...but then I saw you were talking about something completely different!
Jeannett, interesting point you make about schools lacking proper funding. As for Poly itself I think maybe some of the stuff they offer for free to students could be cut, if the schools really were hurting financially. The fees have increased dramatically since I was there and really that wasn't even that long ago. I wonder how many students would be willing to give up their free pass to the rec center (which was always too crowded to use anyway!) for example, in lieu of reduced fees. I realize they want to give a well-rounded education and offer stuff besides just classes, but a lot of poor college students would maybe just prefer to get their education and call it a day.
It's true you never know how people will be impacted by something. Which is why I said I'm sure God uses Family Life and does good things through it. I suppose my primary issue with the phone call was that they were seriously trying to scare me into donating by convincing me that somehow my family was at risk because of unwed mothers and homosexuals.
From a Christian perspective, the Bible tells us that Christians will essentially be "foreigners" in this world, and to be in but not of it. For me, I take from that that there will laws, ideas, whatever that won't necessarily line up with God's ideas. I think that probably means that Christian values, ideas and the like will seem radical compared to society.
Sometimes I think we Christians spend a lot of time trying to preserve a "Christian" nation, when in reality, I don't know that God's plan was ever for government and society to look just like us. I DON'T think that means we flee politics or stop caring (especially when it comes to real life and death issues.) But Jesus didn't spend the bulk of His time on Earth trying to change laws. I don't presume to know what to take from that, I'm just thinking out loud.
Whew, that is a long comment from me. How funny that you thought we were soliciting donations! Of course anyone who wants to give me money, I can ASSURE them it will go to a most worthy cause..hehehe.
As a last comment (which I meant to make earlier but forgot) is how funny I think it is when people soliciting donations have the same MO: Step 1: Ask. Step 2: Scare them into giving. Step 3: Scare some more with a reduced rate. Step 4: assume they must be dirt poor and make it known that you have just made that assumption. Step 5: Tell them to have a nice day, but don't mean it.
There was no wondering about it! He said, "We are also collecting donations at this time." (Is there a time when they turn money away, I wonder?) Then, he told me about all the grand things that are underway: big new dorms, a new football field, etc. And then he said, "We are asking for a minimum donation of $1,000." I was actually oddly relieved because if they had asked for $20, it's a little harder to say no! The guy was plenty nice so it wasn't a big deal but yeah, it does make for an amusing blog post.
Yeah, I guess we do disagree. I paid fees to an institution for services rendered. End of story. If it had been made known to me that Cal Poly required any sort of future payback, I would have chosen a different place to get my work permit--er, degree. Obviously, there is no requirement. And obviously colleges are going to ask for money. And if someone feels motivated to give to their college, that's just fine. I know I'm probably in the minority for feeling next-to-zero "loyalty" to my "alma mater". To be honest, I'd sooner donate money to my elementary school. Hey, I'll even go one step further. I think American society would be better off if less emphasis was placed on those "holy institutions of higher learning", and I think that is precisely what would happen if there was less money flowing through them. No wealthy alumni funding them, schools would have to cut back in what they actually provide, industry would have to "lower their standards" and provide more on-the-job training, and we'd take a step "backwards" towards the more master/apprentice setup of years gone by. And then maybe we could drop this silly societal notion that you're nothing unless you hold a piece of paper. Maybe adolescents could actually hold a meaningful place in society again and not be viewed as nuisances waiting to become adults. I could go on and on (and refer you to a brilliant essay that speaks to these matters) -- we've hit a nerve!
Lastly, as a Christian, I believe that anything God calls me to do, He will provide the means for me to accomplish. But the means don't get the credit, He does. If we had been broke, maybe we would have had to solicit donations, maybe we would have had to sell a bunch of stuff. In our situation, we took money out of our home equity line and continued driving our old cars. But we wouldn't have not adopted. God moved our hearts towards His precious children -- what else could we have done?
My hubby and I graduated from the same UC school. We get calls all the time for money. Their "minimum" donation is 250. What I can't give $20--No it cost too much to send and prepare the materials that they don't want less than 250--absurd. It amazes me that orgainzations think we need help with donating our money. I know to whom and how much I want to give. I know what is important to me. I don't necessarily need/want to be part of anyone else's agenda.
Here comes a long comment. Sorry! First of all, I worked as a telemarketer for 6 weeks, for a Christian organization doing a fundraiser. We asked for a one time gift of $250 and after we got the "no" we went for the monthly pledge of $25 or maybe even $50. I hated it! I did believe in what the organization was doing, but each phone call was miseralble. $250 is A LOT of money when you are in college. It still is a lot of money, but at the time I made about $500 a month! Well, now I make $0, but that isn't the point. I just feel bad for the people when they call. I also say that my husband and I do not take financial decisions lightly or without consulting each other so if they could send us some information about where our money would be going we would consider a donation. Unless it is the police association, they yelled at me once when I said I wasn't interested and really scared me. I hang up on them and lock my doors.
I went to a private college so I get why they call for money. There not getting any from me though. As to Kevin's comment, Ratheon may be different, but my friends company, in your industry, only hires graduates from select Universities, Cal Poly is one of them. So where you got your degree may have played a large role in your employment. Personally, I was hired at a Concordia job fair after a ten minute interview. It was well known in the area that Concordia teachers were well trained and we were pursued before graduating. That is why I choose Concordia in the first place. I think the statistic was 90 percent of education students secured employment before finishing the program.
I could go on and on about the legalising gay marriage, but I'll try to keep it short. I do believe that gay couples should have the legal benefits of married couples, like tax breaks andbe able to get information about their partner in a hospital. I do not believe they should have the title married. Marriage is a holy union between a man and a woman, period. It was instituted by God, not the government.
A sin is a sin, and I am a guilty sinner, redeemed by grace alone through faith in Christ Jesus. I deserve no more than my homosexual neighbor on judgement day. The sins I struggle with our internal and less visible to society. but God knows my heart and I will have to answer for those too.
I feel like I should just erase this whole thing in case I offended someone. I gues we are only at 9 for comments so we could go aways yet. Have a great day to all.
One more thing. I was just thinking about this in the shower. My mom is 60 and grew up in California. I had an african-american teacher in fourth grade. When parent teacher conferences rolled around my mom was nervous. She had never had a conversation with someone who was black before. There were no black students in her schools until her senior year. I remember thinking that was so strange. How could my mom feel weird about speaking to someone who was black? Since, she has had many so-workers of different shades and has no problem. It was just a shift in her thinking. I wonder what are kids are going to think is weird about us in ten or twenty years. As the homosexual life style continues to be included on every new sitcom and movie we may find it on other places we didn't expect. It may find its way into newly written children's books or elementary curriculum, or even Sesame Street. The next few decades will be very interesting to see unfold in our country.
Briefly, the calls from Poly officially stopped for me when I removed myself from the alumni mailers and call lists. It is a solicitation and if you are on the Do Not Call List, they legally can't call you. I agree with Kev. I paid my dues...Done and done! (though I highly enjoyed my college and my college years). I am pretty certain that my degree from Poly got me my bank manager job, though they did ask for my transcripts. (kind of a weird request when you are 30). I just flat out take the approach of my parents on the solicitation bit. "We don't accept phone solicitations. If you want to send something in the mail, that is fine. Thank you."
And thank you...
I meant did NOT get me my current job. Doooh!
oh yeah, they always get me at the grocery store too. They have the barcodes to donate to the Children's Hospital right where you swipe your credit card. It's $2, $5, or $10. If they ask, I feel compelled to say yes, as Aubrey spent three and a half days of her life there in the first week. I know the donation doesn't help children like her, but it does help the terminal floor and I cannot say no to that. Who knew, I do have a little compassion!
Long comment alert. To reiterate part of what Kevin said (and throw my two cents in) in regards to owing something to a degree (therefore having the responsbility to give back)--God can bless and provide in any number of ways. For our family, yes Kevin got a degree and was hired for a job which God uses to give us food, clothing and shelter. HOWEVER, if Kevin didn't have a degree and was working elsewhere, I believe God would still be providing us with food, clothing and shelter. AND, as for the adoptions, I am convinced God would have provided a way. It's His work and He cares deeply about children and orphans and wants them to have families.
Rachel--I worked as a telemarketer too! Though nothing as noble as yours, mine was selling magazines under the auspices of people being entered in a sweepstakes. Every day I'd get home with a hoarse voice and sore throat. It was awful; fortunately I didn't work there too long. Low point was asking for Mr. Smith and the woman who answered saying Mr. Smith had been dead for the last three years...oops.
I feel the same as you do in regards to homosexual rights, etc. (I'm glad you didn't erase your comment, I enjoyed reading it!)
Mike, yes I do not know why Kevin remains on the contact list and gives out his email address. We would just never give to Cal Poly. I could foresee helping an underpriviledged student attend college, but that's different.
I really don't mind when people ask for donations. Fact is, there are so many people who need help, organizations that are underfunded, that it's fine with me. However, it's the methods they use that trouble me (Family Life for example. I feel like they're trying to scare Christians by convincing them that their money will stop certain things.) The Cal Poly thing, if someone insists on remaining on their calling/emailing list (ahem, Kevin), we realize that asking for money is fair game. I just thought it blogworthy since their minimum donation request is $1000 and that is one "cause" we would just never give to.
My confession for the day is the following. We get all sorts of mailings from World Vision (FYI an AWESOME organization that is so worth checking out and giving to.) WELL, as recent as say a couple years ago, it used to bug me that we'd get these mailings frequently with "sensational" headings like "Woman dying in Zambia" or "Unclean water killing children in Uganda" with photos of emaciated, starving people. (Didn't bug me that we'd get mailings, I liked World Vision, I just felt like they were sensationalizing things.) I would tell Kevin, "Why do they feel the need to sensationalize this? We get the point." Hmmmm....then God opened my (small, selfish) heart and (blind, ignorant) eyes to the fact that it ISN'T sensationalism: it's REALITY. And headlines like that would be front-page news if it were our country.
I have since come to really admire everything that World Vision does and I love the fact that their headings and photos are dramatic and personalized. Because it's real. Obviously I needed to be shaken out of my comfy American worldview. (Which I have been and continue to be, to a degree, though still probably not as much as I should be.) It is rather humiliating to admit that their headlines bugged me. BUT I am a work in progress--fortunately God's not done with me yet!
Would this be the same brain we use to read verses that tell us to "seek first His kingdom and His righteousness, and all these things will be given to [us] as well"? You talk like we're somehow responsible for (or even in control of) the future state of our country's economy. God will bless as He determines and we, regardless of the circumstances, are to order our priorities aright. If America were to lose all of its high-tech jobs, then God would still be pleased with His servant who accepts the blessings He gives with a cheerful and thankful heart. "A man's life does not consist in the abundance of his possessions" nor in his career path.
I am by no means saying that a Christian should not give money to his college (the situation with the guy on the phone struck me as funny merely because of the minimum donation amount) but I am somewhat in awe to find that you take issue with us simply because there are other things we are more passionate about.
I think Kevin's point was that had he NOT gone to college, and NOT been an engineer, that we would still be eating and God would still be providing. Maybe we wouldn't have the same amount of money, or own a home, or whatever, but God would have something for us.
You certainly don't have to go to college to have (or use your) brains, or hold a degree to have (or use your) brains. The world tells us that education, status, and money are what's important. God tells us love, compassion, and faith are important. Jesus was a humble carpenter afterall. During His years of ministry, He was even homeless (Matthew 8:20).
Most of the world's population isn't college educated. In our society though, parents equate this with kids making the most of themselves, to live up to their potential. As for me, I want my kids to leave our home with loving, compassionate hearts, having learned responsibility, and with a knowledge of how much God loves them. If they choose to go to college, fine. If they choose to do something else to provide for themselves, also fine.
I'll never forget meeting someone and overhearing them telling Kevin about someone he used to know, saying, "So-and-so is a nothing, he just works at a gas station." I was horrified to hear that! Bottom line, the guy is working, and if he's happy at the gas station and is paying his bills, who cares? We all use gasoline, so SOMEONE has to work there.
God's economy is much different from the world's. And thank goodness for that--otherwise I'd be in deep trouble!
(On a side-note, I am grateful for our country's dedication to providing public education in general. If people want to donate to universities, that is fine. However I don't "revere" the university system as many people do.)
Sorry for the way-too-long comment, as usual. :)
I haven't talked to Andy about this blog but I don't think his (or my) issue is with your preference for giving to other organizations. Rather, I think (and here I'm speaking for myself) the issue might be that giving to your university may not be such a wretched idea after all. Don't get me wrong, even after all this pontificating, we've NEVER donated one red cent to Poly...don't know that we ever will. Although I do know that Andy's company tries to work with CP students by sitting on judging panels and hiring student interns, etc. as a non-monetary way of giving back in some form. For me, though, I think I'm unsettled by how you almost despise the system altogether. (and this is the trouble with blogging/email...you can't really read tone and you can't banter back and forth easily in dialogue so there's a lot of assuming going on) Look, I totally disagree with people who think that college is the "only way" to go, I know Andy does too. In fact, I get furious when people imply that you are less important unless you have a degree. I think that is stupid and there are a lot of people who are not academically minded and for whom college is a bad choice, or for whom it doesn't serve a purpose, so why spend the money? That said, I do think that education is important, and to make little of the idea that you were given the very unique (globally) opportunity to attend college at all is disheartening. Maybe you grew up just knowing you were going to go to college, and maybe both your parents went, and that's just how your world worked, and that's what was expected and implied. But, it's a bit offensive to say that it's just a silly "work permit" when someone like me feels that I have been very blessed to have been accepted and made it through at all. There are a lot of people in this world who would give anything to be given the opportunity you were given and to make little of that by being annoyed that some of us treasure the ability to have gone through that process and want to give back...not the idea that I'm better than you because I have a degree...that's silly, but just in general...that God blessed me with opportunities that were not afforded to many others. It's interesting, my family (none of whom graduated High School) falls into one of two categories: either they think I'm a genius because I went to college (which I promptly refute, as I'm sure you agree!), or they think I'm a stuck up snobby punk whom they've written off. My dad hasn't spoken to me in 6 years precisely because I have a college degree. I don't think I'm better than anyone for it, but I do appreciate it and am proud of it as an accomplishment in general. Same as if I had climbed Mt. Everest (yea, right!).
I think it is great that you don't give money to Poly, because you give it to a cause you find more worthy. And I agree that regardless of college or not, God would certainly provide what you needed...I guess I just want you to understand how lucky you are and not take it for granted. Or, at least maybe not do it in front of me because I really do feel privileged and blessed that God gave me my education, so maybe I want to provide that opportunity for another person...I have always wanted to start up a scholarship fund for first generation college students. Someday...
I regret that so much of what I tried to say came across to you as something completely different. I never said that giving to your university is "such a wretched idea." We were just floored that the minimum donation expected was $1,000.
I too think education (and here I mean all education, not just of the university-level variety) is important. And I'm puzzled as to how I conveyed that I make little of the idea that I was given the opportunity to attend college. My comment about how it is primarily a work permit is a reflection of how, in my experience (and that of others), practically speaking that is what it is. In my 4 years in the electrical engineering field I can not point to a single class I took at Cal Poly that was absolutely indispensable to carrying out my professional responsibilities. And don't get me wrong (please), I think Cal Poly was a fine school, I had many great professors, and as far as that type of education goes, I think they did a fine job with me. My beef is not with them but with the system. I think I would have been far more valuable entering Raytheon with 3 months of 1-on-1 mentoring and question asking/answering under my belt than 192 units worth of Cal Poly classes. And I understand that the stated purpose of college is not strictly utilitarian, that is to merely equip me to become an engineer, but rather that education in general shapes minds and makes well-rounded young adults, etc. but if we truly evaluate the current system on those terms, I'm afraid it doesn't fare much better.
That in no way says that a college degree is not important (by definition you don't have permission to work without a work permit and I wouldn't have spent 4 years of my life doing something I deemed unimportant), nor that it is easy to obtain, nor that I take lightly the fact that God blessed me in obtaining one. I was merely commenting on a system that, in my opinion, is not at all ideal. Do you think it is? Can you not think of a dozen things off the top of your head that are totally lame about how the system works and about the attitudes it tends to produce in our society?
And the only reason I posted a second comment in the first place (or was that a first comment in the second place?) was because I was troubled by what Andy originally wrote: that it was Cal Poly (through their good name just gifting me a job) who was to thank for my twin sons. I wholeheartedly believe that God didn't need me to go to college in order for Him to be "able" to add these wonderful boys to our family. And maybe when I phrase it that way, no one would disagree. But I feel like that is precisely the sort of attitude that tends to crop up about college. It is college that allows us to achieve financial prosperity and independence. It is college that allows us to achieve our potential. It is college that allows us to provide for our families. And now it is college that allowed my wife and I to adopt our boys? When did God check out as the Source of "every good and perfect gift"? When did He modify His claim on us and say it was okay to trust 80% in Him and 20% in what we've accomplished through our schooling. We are to be "as shrewd as snakes" so sure, for many of us, living in a society that is so weighted towards the college grads, it makes sense to be on that side of the fence if we can. But that is not some timeless absolute that deserves our praise. Rather we should be thankful that at this time and in this age, God was able to use this particular societal construct to bless us.
In short (yeah, you're right, it's way too late for that) I am sorry for not explaining things well enough and for offending you. I completely understand how big of a deal it is to have the opportunity to go to and graduate from college. I don't take it for granted for myself nor for anyone else.
Viva la Warren Baker...
Aaah, just when I thought I was wholeheartedly in agreement with you, you had to toast The BakeMan.
Man, you don't check in for one day and look what happens! Kevin and Brianna, I know you met at Grace, or a Weird Al concert, but neither of you would have been there without attending Poly. You wouldn't have got married to each other or have three wonderful kids.
If I didn't go to school in Irvine, I wouldn't have got a job in Tustin. If Mike didn't get hired by Edwards Jones and decide to move to San Diego he would have never been offered the Tustin office. If his BOA wasn't a Christain she wouldn't have told him about Rock Harbor,... and we would not have met or got married, had a kid, or moved 1000 miles away.
You get my point. God is in the details and he has a perfect plan for each of us, even if it's workin g at a gas station. So if you want to thank him for it, give to the church or to the homeless guy at the offramp or pay for the person's fast food behind you in the drive through or thank Him daily in prayer. I'm sure the Gibson's and all of the Heldt's are thankful for the opportunities we have been given. And again, $1000 is a lot for a minimum donation :)
Andy, I'm not undermining. I think you just proved my point. It is God who has blessed us as He saw fit and He deserves the credit. And of course college at Cal Poly was a significant plan for me. I spent 4 years doing it and it paved the way for a lot of my present logistics. I just don't assign credit to the plan that belongs to the Planner. And are you SURE you want to lose 3 out of 4 again??? :)
Viva la Weird Al!!!
Not to "nitpick"--but I'm from the SLO area and have lived there all my life, so I would have been at Weird Al regardless of college choice--it was closer to my hometown than to SLO. :)
God used Grace Church to bring us together. Yes I got my "MRS" degree while attending Poly. BUT we just don't give Cal Poly credit for us meeting or for our kids, especially not for us adopting, which is what we were responding to in the first place, explaining why we don't feel indebted to Poly. God used it, but He could have used something else. A different way to look at things but I think that's okay. Yes He's in the details, but He's also bigger than the details.
Over and out.
Are we done now? I'm tired.
Whoa!
That's all. I agree with all of you and think you all agree with each other, just not explaining it the way the other is "hearing" it.
My 2 cents
Andy, you're going to need more than a straight cue, "friend"...
(And sign up for my league already! Sheesh.)
I know this post is dead, but... I jsut got my mail and my Concordia Today quarerly magazine was there. The back cover lists four ways to write Concordia into your will!
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